With the 2022 holiday season comes a number of video games to serve as stocking stuffers. Many are undoubtedly still working through November releases like God of War: Ragnarok or Pokemon Scarlet and Violet, with games like The Callisto Protocol and Marvel's Midnight Suns just hitting shelves. There are also plenty of indies to watch like Lil Gator Game or Aka, and earlier this week Super Awesome Hyper Dimensional Mega Team put out its latest offering: The Knight Witch.Game Rant spoke to game director Kevin Sarda Perez, art director Enrique Corts, and programmer Jorge Fernandez Sanchez about how The Knight Witch grew out of humble origins to blend gaming genres and speak to modern society. Interview has been edited for clarity and brevity.Q: Tell me how you all got involved in the games industry.Perez: I've been working on video games for 12 years now. I made my own company in 2010 called Beautifun Games, which is still out there. We made a game called Nihilumbra as my first project, but after that I went to Tequila Works where I was the lead game designer on Rime - which is probably my most popular project so far.[EMBED_YT]https://youtu.be/sF6bXie3us0[/EMBED_YT]I was also the narrative director on Gylt, which was only on Google Stadia so not a lot of people heard about it. But it's going to be ported to other platforms now, I'm really glad about that. I worked with Tequila for some time and was in charge of other projects that never got announced. Then I joined Super Mega Team for The Knight Witch in 2020.Corts: My turn then, I've been working in the industry for 22 years already. It's funny, I started my career on Team17 as an artist, but I've been all over the world working at different companies. I was at Sony making the little EyeToy games. Later on I worked on projects like Plants vs. Zombies, and around 2010 I founded Super Mega Team thanks to the opportunity that mobile phones and tablets brought to developers. We've kept making games, Knight Witch is actually our fifth project as a team. It's also the second one we've made for PC and consoles. I'm an artist, but also something of a director.Perez: Interesting note there, when Enrique founded Super Mega Team in 2010, that was the exact same year we founded Beautifun Games. That's how we met each other, showing our first games around the same time. We always thought about maybe one day working together, so this is a long-time coming.Corts: Yeah, pioneering indies I think. It was a very empty industry back then, so it's funny to see it now.Sanchez: For me, it's pretty wild because I was playing EyeToy when I was like 10 years old. They've been doing all this since I was just a little kid, so nowadays I do feel like a child because I am surrounded by pretty huge people in the industry on my first project. I started my career at Super Mega Team in 2020 when I had recently finished my degree. It's crazy, I'm constantly improving myself, and probably one day I'll be talking to a little kid that started playing video games with The Knight Witch. I think that's one of the most beautiful things that can happen to you in this industry.Q: Since we've started talking about Super Mega Team's history in mobile puzzle games, how did the company grow to bigger projects like The Knight Witch?Corts: I'd question using the word "grow" as we haven't grown much to be honest. It's more the mission and scope on our projects that have grown. As you said, first we made mobile games because it was cheap and easy - pretty much everyone with a computer in their homes could make a game and put it out there to see some sales.
However, our tastes were always more into consoles and PC, making hardcore games instead of casual games. That's where we went as soon as we had the chance with Rise & Shine, it's what we wanted to make going back to pre-production in 2012. Around then was also when "Free-to-Play" stuff started being implemented in mobile games, and we really hated it. We didn't see ourselves being part of that as developers, so it made the decision to switch far easier. On console and PC, you can make a whole thing, put it on sale, and be honest with yourself.Q: So where did the idea behind The Knight Witch come from?Corts: It's thanks to Kevin really, he came on board when at first we wanted to make a very straightforward shooter. There were only three people on the team, and we didn't assume we'd be getting any funds to make the game bigger. Then we had the chance to raise funds through a publisher and grow as a team, it became far more ambitious than it was at the beginning.Maybe Kevin can say something to this.Perez: Actually, this was a fine coincidence. I remember I saw The Knight Witch's demo when there was only three people working on it - I was at Tequila at the time. I thought it was fantastic, I really liked the gameplay. When I talked with Enrique he told me they were also working on another deck-building game that did combat with cards. Those two things collided in my brain, I thought this metroidvania shooter definitely needs a deck-building system.
I wasn't even on the team, but I got so in-love with the idea that I couldn't stop thinking about it. When I saw they were looking for a game designer I got offended, like why didn't you ask me? Why did it go on Twitter where I have to compete with everyone else? I thought the game could be an interesting mix of things, but at the same time a unique thing all its own. When you try to describe it using genres it sounds muddled, but when you play it this could be one genre if someone came up with a name for it.Q: So did a deck-builder become the basis for Knight Witch?Perez: No, the first step was an exploration flying-shooter. All the aesthetics and The Knight Witch's world were there, but the game was basically just a flying twin-stick shooter. The idea was there to make it a metroidvania, but nothing else was present.I came up with a proposal to have deck-building on top of that. Metroidvanias sometimes lack a variety of rewards, you often just pick up something that will let you increase your amount of arrows by one. They're segmented out because you can do it to put rewards everywhere, encouraging exploration. I thought a deck-building spell system would be a great addition to the genre, finding cards you combine but can't use all at once so the power-scaling doesn't go through the roof. It seems pretty natural, I really wanted to try it.Corts: For the original demo we have a really rough, primitive system like cards. There were power-ups, collectibles, but it wasn't working very well. I didn't know what to do with them.Perez: It was a little weird and hard to understand, but once we prototyped it, everybody loved it.Sanchez: When you find a card, it's strange because it could be a straightforward power-up for some, but for other people maybe it really sucks. Cards themselves are not straightforward power-ups, it depends on the way you are going to use it.
Q: Is there a particular part of the game you're programming on, Jorge?Sanchez: Yes, I've been working particularly on the artificial intelligence; enemy patterns, shot systems for all the bosses. One funny thing for me has been the bosses, because I have meetings with Kevin for prototyping and designing where we figure "this is going to be one of the most hated bosses in the game," but it seems like a great idea. So, we go with it.Perez: I can add something to hateful bosses. We want our bosses to be challenging and difficult so that you can benefit from deck-building strategies, that was always the core of everything. There isn't always just one winning strategy. But we also want bosses to be fair, we want people to defeat them at any skill level, even if they don't have the "right" cards. It's tricky, so we benefit from designing and programming them together.Q: In classic shoot 'em ups like Gradius, usually the strategy is "get the biggest power-up." When you have so much variance as a metroidvania deck-builder, just how challenging is enemy design?Perez: It's an interesting question, because it really wasn't that challenging thanks to some calls we made at the beginning. We always thought about the mindset of the players, the amount of stuff they can ponder at the same time. So for example, it would be a mistake to have the deck-builder system and a super-complex skill tree, and then on top of that an inventory with five-percent chance of criticals. We simplified the other aspects to focus on deck-building.There's another type of player progression that scales your power, but it doesn't translate into as many different choices as the deck-building itself. At the end of the day, if you're having trouble with some aspect of a boss - like dodging bullets - you can add more bullet-clearing spells to your deck. But if you just want to kill faster, you can focus on that type of card. Every time you get defeated, you can swap out the cards you didn't like and try again. Soon you'll have a perfect deck for the occasion.You'll really notice it, too. When I was balancing the game at later stages, I played with the minimum amount of life, mana, and bullet strength, but always changed the deck. I tried to balance the game in a way that it was harder with the basic deck.
Q: As far as metroidvania elements go, are there a lot of "gate" and "key" narrative progression locks in the world design? Or does deck-building also affect how you advance through the world?Perez: We didn't want to have key-unlock systems inside the deck-building, because all cards may or may not be equipped depending on what you prefer. If you reached a lock and didn't have the right card in your hand, you'd have to rotate through different stuff to get what you needed. We felt that was not fun.Having the right card to progress faster through a level is something you can do, and I hope to see a speedrunning community take advantage of that - I think it'd be really, really cool. But it's never mandatory to progress through the story. The key-unlock mechanics that allow you to access new areas are not in the card system, there are skills you can learn like a sword attack, or other stuff I won't spoil; basic abilities you'll always have at your disposal.As metroidvanias go, this is pretty streamlined. I think it's closer to things like Iconoclasts or Shantae where you are supposed to beat levels in a certain order, but you can always go back to revisit them. It also doesn't have such a huge map that you can wander in any direction like Hollow Knight. This game's more narrative-driven, there's a main storyline telling you the next step.Q: To Enrique on that point, the story and world design brings to mind fairy tale elements. What was the impetus for that?Corts: The story is kind of a fairy tale, a very epic one. We wanted to follow that aesthetic with cartoon-looking characters, very colorful, very whimsical in some places. It's a strange mix of different influences, I think. Enemies are high-tech sometimes, they look like robots coming from the future, mixed alongside people with swords and armor and witch hats. I always thought that was a fun combination to explore.As you can see, it's close to the CalArts style, similar to Cartoon Network series like Steven Universe. Pretty cartoon-y and simple. I love that whimsical look in the characters, it's something I want to have in our games.
Q: What was the process of actually designing the world like?Corts: That was pretty easy, it was just our personal style when we put pen-to-paper. The other artist Mar Hernandez and I have been working together for something like 20 years, and she's my girlfriend so that helps.Perez: They're really synchronized.Corts: Like peanut butter and jelly, goes really well together. Her backgrounds are fantastic, they add a lot of layers and depth to the game. I'd say a ton of the game's style comes down to the background art, but it all just kind of came together organically, we didn't need to think about that too much.Perez: Even the story comes from their particular style. The original demo didn't have much storytelling, we had to build upon the pillars of talking about ecology and the environment. There's a nature-versus-technology thing underlying the game, so when we build the story we talk about those things, and you can see that mix of fantasy and robots. The story and art style are linked because the story bloomed from that art, in this case.Q: Is the story presented more in grand narrative sweeps? Or is it more intimate, dealing on a character-by-character basis?Perez: In metroidvanias you're always exploring, uncovering new areas, going back to different places. Plus we have a shooter on top of that, and exploration/shooting does not deal well with long dialogues. I wanted to write the longest possible dialogues, but ultimately tried to keep things simple. I'll say it's a story that unfolds, that original demo acts like a prologue and the events of the game are 14 years later. It's about understanding the impact of stuff that wasn't told throughout the 14 years, how that affected the characters and society.
There's also plenty of bad guys and robots, and reasons to fight and destroy them to protect the people of Dungeonidas. But I think the story goes to places you wouldn't expect when you start. Every time I see a debate about the story online, I'm waiting for the full game to come out since I can't participate without spoiling the rest. What you see in the demo is just the tip of the iceberg.Q: The Knight Witch's Steam page alludes to a sort of morality system with how you present your character. How does that come into play?Perez: That's what I wanted to talk about for the story, so it's great you're asking directly about it.Corts: Oh no, the Kevin is unleashed.Perez: The game's experience system is a little different. We all know how experience works, you get it when you do certain stuff and use it to level up, become stronger. But in many games, experience is infinite - you can defeat the same enemies again and again. In this case, killing enemies doesn't give you experience at all. In this world, the Knight Witches have a special type of power, they get stronger when people trust and believe in them.I'm not going to say the name of the anime because of copyright, but you know the one where in order to launch the final attack, everyone on Earth has to send their energy at the same time?Q: I think I know the one you're talking about.Perez: Same story here. If everyone believes in the Knight Witches, they can do great stuff. That sounds well and good, but things get more shady when the Knight Witches start to have marketing departments and must make public appearances to get that strength. So you have a particular dilemma: You have to be popular to be stronger and help people, but when you only focus on being more popular, honesty isn't always the best strategy.
We're not going to say that telling the truth or telling lies are inherently right or wrong. We have our own opinions of course, but we wanted to put people in a position where they're interviewed after a normal mission in a video game and have to choose whether they explain what really happened or say something more wholesome that increases their popularity. Since this is tied to finite experience, you will really consider doing what your PR agent tells you - an actual in-game character. He's not a good guy or a bad guy, he just wants to make you stronger.I think that's one of those areas where the story goes to places you might not expect. The first time they interview you should be jarring, you don't expect to do it in a shooter-exploration game. But at the end of the day, gameplay drives the game forward, so you'll have the chance to interact with a lot of characters. You can see what people think about the news, so it's interesting to play twice and see different reactions. Most of these narratives you don't have to interact with if you just want to focus on exploration.Sanchez: Actually, it's really funny to see people struggling. Like, "Ah, I don't want to lie, but I really need that power."Perez: Not in the Steam demo, but in tests that we've done. When we see someone reach this part it's fun, because you can see the amount of experience you get next to every answer.Q: Is there a huge variance in the amount of power you wind up with because of these choices? Could you theoretically make a self-imposed hard mode?Perez: No. I mean, one thing that was really important to us - we're all players, we like metroidvanias - we don't want content to be blocked if you do something wrong or leave an area before you find whatever. You can always go back, and even if you have less experience because you told the truth, there are other ways to catch up. You can always reach max level.
But, of course, it would be a helpful boost to run into the next level stronger if you decide to lie. You'd have to work for all that experience if you tell the truth instead. There are other consequences too, even if you recover that experience.Q: Like an NPC might say something different to you next time.Perez: Yeah, I think it's very interesting to talk to people afterward. One way of earning more experience is finding people and saving them, but they aren't just collectibles. They're NPCs that move into the hub. Some of them are even part of secondary quests. The sooner you get all these NPCs, the more interactions you can have with them. If you wait until the end of the game to rescue all the prisoners, you'll only see their reactions to whatever is happening then. That's an interesting way to hide a little narrative content here and there.There are other gameplay implications, but as I said, there's no content blocked by saying one thing or the other. I don't want to talk about endings and stuff, but whatever you unlock, you can do it.Q: But you can at least say there are ending(s)?Perez: Hm? I didn't say that.Corts: Good ear, good ear, you picked it up.Q: Given the diverse deck-building/magic system, do you all have different preferences on how to play?Corts: I'm more of a weapon guy. I like shooting, so I always build my deck toward lots of weapons everywhere. I don't really use trickster card, I'm more about weapons and destruction.Perez: Weapons in The Knight Witch are like classic power-ups in shooter games, they can turn your basic shot into a triple shot or something that explodes in an area, a flamethrower, stuff like that. If you make a deck with that, you can change your weapon out all the time.Corts: I guess I'm into what we'd call the "Knight" build. The "Witch" build can be leaned toward with different types of cards, but that's Kevin's playground. It's a cool idea that lets you build your character how you want. You don't like cards? That's fine, shoot and get some weapons. If you like to make synergies with your deck, go crazy.Sanchez: Me, personally, I'm a true "Witch." I like to spam the destruction cards that deal the most damage possible. Actually, I use a technique that Team17 inserted in the last "crash course" video on Twitter; I really like to have low-cost cards so that my rotation is easier and I can have faster access to the most powerful card. Then I can make a bloodbath.[EMBED_TWITTER]https://twitter.com/Team17/status/1592943798895915008?s=20&t=l9QJpD96xrfeWxQSvGrwlQ[/EMBED_TWITTER]Perez: In my case, I've played so much with all the development and balancing - and this is the first time that's happened to me, usually you get tired of it, but I was still having fun through two years of development. I started to do trick shots, use cards that set up chain reactions or ambushes. Leaving bombs in midair, or shields, or I use a second ability to change the way I'm using cards to not just defeat the enemy, but defeat them the instant they appear with the most style possible.Corts: Yeah, it was super fun to see people who tested out game a few months ago and wanted to name their custom decks. They made their own things, always played those cards, and loved them. Something maybe we can introduce later on with some update, I hope we get the chance.Q: In terms of testing, you've talked about the Steam Next Fest demo and playtesting. How has the reception been? Are there a lot of specific comments you've received?Perez: It has been pretty great so far, we're super excited. I'm usually a "don't read the comments" kind of guy, because when you work so much on a game you're more likely to take it seriously and want everyone to like the game. That's never the case, everyone has their own tastes. But I think it's a pretty straightforward game, what you see is what you get - and a little bit more. You can see comments on trailers, forums like Reddit, Twitter; when you see someone playing the game, you can see them having fun.I'm really looking forward to people seeing the rest of the game. Beyond their reactions to the gameplay experience, we'll also get to see their reactions to the story. We were always super concerned about making the best experience for the player as possible, designing it to be as smooth and fun as possible. But you never know.Corts: The most incredible thing for me, after working in the industry for a while, you know that when you put something out in the wild, you'll get some hate. But in this case, a big chunk of comments and feedback have been positive. I wouldn't say 100 percent, but pretty high. When you put something out there you brace yourself, but the comments we've gotten are so isolated that it's fantastic. Some people say the game isn't for me, which is fine, but it's mostly great. That's really refreshing.
Sanchez: For me, it was really difficult at the beginning because I was a little afraid of people saying bad things about my baby. It's not just my two-years baby, it's my first baby. My partners were telling me, "People are going to be bad."Perez: We were preparing him.Sanchez: "People are going to be rude with you no matter what, so prepare for it." But the first impact was relief; a lot of people are liking it. I'm really enjoying it.Corts: Maybe it's the pandemic, nothing much has happened for the last two years so there isn't so much hate anymore.Perez: Well, I think it's also because we allow people to play how they want. You may lack the dexterity to dodge enemy bullets, but you have a lot of cards to make the challenge easier. Or you can explore to get a bit stronger. People have said they don't like deck-building, but we don't have elemental resistances, status effects, or other things you might think about for a deck. It's all bam, zoom, explosions; super cool. They have patterns so that you can't use them mindlessly, but ultimately you can just focus on shooting.So, I think when people don't like aspects of the game - which is absolutely normal - they can just ignore it a little and focus on something else. The experience at the end is different for everybody.Q: You mentioned the pandemic, Enrique. This game has been developed largely during the pandemic right?Perez: Yep, and it's about a whole city confined underground.Q: So just a little influenced by the whole thing.Corts: Yeah, surely. I'm super proud of that fact, I thought it was going to be super difficult to find a publisher and funding, people who could come on board to make the game with us. It hasn't been that difficult for us, to be honest. Of course, it has some influence on the story, but I'm proud we were able to ship the game.
Q: Beyond Jorge, you've done a number of games pre-pandemic. How has it been different developing now?Corts: A lot of people ask me that, but because we've never had much money, we've never really had an office. We had one in 2012 for about six months, but it didn't work for us. So we've been working remotely forever and ever. It hasn't been a big change, for us, it's been business as usual. It has been pretty smooth, there hasn't been any crunch.During the last stretch of development we tried having a four-day working week, always just six hours a day. We tried to actually pace ourselves, because we knew this was a marathon. We always wanted for our team to be happy and productive, not burn out themselves after a while.Perez: Yeah. But at the same time, we have to stay at home a lot. Working on the game is just something reliable you can do. The whole thing is working remotely though, we don't even live in the same city. I did work in an office before, and I think it's super fun to be with people in the same environment, but it has also been great developing this game this way.Corts: Bigger companies have had to change plans, throw out their fancy offices and go back home. We've been lucky.Q: You guys have talked about player experience, and I understand accessibility options are a big aspect of it. How are you expanding the scope of who can play The Knight Witch?Perez: We've had some comments because we talk about accessibility a lot, and you can see a label on the main menu. We tried to include as many accessibility features as possible within the design itself. For example, we didn't color-code things. In areas where there are doors with different colors, there are also numbers, you don't need to change that in a menu.
We also included an auto-aiming system. You can use the right joystick like a twin-stick shooter, but you can just forget about that and press the shoot button to auto aim - like Vampire Survivors we say now, but that reference wasn't there when we started. That's also embedded in the design, you don't have to activate it in a menu. We don't have any kind of quick-time event, either. The game is designed to include these accessibility things, but they aren't options. They're just features we've been thinking about throughout development.For difficulty - which is a barrier on certain games - we thought the funniest, coolest way we could do this was adding a cheats menu. We miss the old days when you had a cheats menu and could unlock cool stuff. That doesn't just allow you to cater the difficulty to your means, you can modify the game to get rid of stuff you like the least. Let's say, for example, you have no problem dodging bullets, but you don't want to be looking at how much mana you have for cards. You can unlock unlimited mana with cheats.That turns into an accessibility feature in the end, even if it's disguised as something more fun. It allows pretty much everybody to play the game, I could recommend it to anyone I know. Unless you have some major disability that doesn't allow you to hold the controller - we don't have a solution for that, unfortunately. But in terms of difficulty, colorblindness, stuff like that, I think we have everyone covered.Corts: Also the cheat codes are not tricky at all, it's not hard to find out.Q: With The Knight Witch coming up on release, how are you feeling? Do you have big expectations?Perez: We know that the video game industry is a wild, wild world. I think we're all super proud of the work we've done, and we are excited to see how it goes, but we know that it doesn't depend just on the game. Unfortunately. There might be other releases close to us, for example God of War Ragnarok was super scary, and I hope everybody has time - me included, since I enjoy the hell out of it - to complete it before The Knight Witch comes out. But you never know.[EMBED_YT]https://youtu.be/dyMhfaNqexM[/EMBED_YT]We want to keep expectations realistic, and we'll hope for the best. But we think on our part, we did the best we could and are happy with the result.Corts: Yeah, yeah. I would say we already have our projections for game sales, and it says we might not be a huge hit, but that could change pretty fast. Personally, I think the biggest selling point of our game is the story. People are going to be surprised to find out it has so many layers they couldn't expect.Perez: I think the biggest selling point is the art.Corts: No, I don't think so.Sanchez: Nobody thinks the programming is the selling point, though.Perez: I know the game isn't going to break because the programming is so well done.Corts: No bugs, bug free.But yeah, for me, the story is our biggest card - pun intended - for the game being a success. But you never know, it's a wildcard. At least the projections we have are pretty good.Perez: Everything we wanted it to be, everything you can expect as a developer.Q: Jorge, it's your first baby. How are you feeling?Sanchez: Well, I am a little afraid of people saying bad things about it, but I'm really delighted and proud of the work. I think people are going to enjoy it and appreciate all the effort and layers the game has. It has a story that is going to make people think about our society-
Perez: Don't sell the story so much.Sanchez: No, it's true! When I first read the script, I thought it was going to be an interesting selling point. Also the art, we've been at places showing the game and people think it's amazing, they're in love with the characters. "Are these two going to have a love story?" A lot of people think it's powerful that we have a female main character who has a healthy relationship with her husband.It's really reinforcing. It's the reason we are awake every day and turn on our computer.Q: Enrique, you mentioned potential post-launch updates. Is the plan to keep working on this game? Or does Super Mega Team have more on the horizon?Corts: At this point we are waiting and seeing. It has to be beneficial for us and our publisher to produce more content, so it's up to the players. If they like it and the game does well, we'll be happy to oblige and produce more content.Perez: We have many ideas for that. But the thing is, the game is already pretty much closed, we're helping with marketing efforts. The year is ending, so we're going to get some rest and see how things turn out. December is pretty wild, we aren't going to consider working on new stuff right now.Corts: Will probably have to do some bug fixing or other unexpected things after launch, but that's probably it.Perez: It looks pretty stable, though.Corts: Crossing fingers.
Q: I'm sure you hate getting this question at the end of a dev cycle, but is this world something you'd be interested in returning to?Perez: The Knight Witch? I would like to make an animated series, more games, and write a couple of novels. I think the core concept of people becoming stronger when other people give them their trust is so good. I was ditching ideas every day, just picking the ones that make sense with the current story. I think the worldbuilding could be so much more, and I'd be delighted to make more content in this world.Sanchez: You're spoiling our next contract, Kevin.Perez: Oh yeah, of course.Corts: With all the social networks, influencers, and streamers going on at the moment, I think the game has something to say.Perez: The magic kind of correlates with that craving for social attention people have nowadays. It's our way to make a different story about a magic world where you can relate to things from the present. That's interesting.Q: Is there anything else you want to add?Perez: Let's just say that nowadays a lot of games are coming out, so like Knight Witches we get stronger when people believe in us. If you play the game and like it, recommend it to your friends. That really helps.[END]The Knight Witch is available now on PC, PS4, PS5, Switch, Xbox One, and Xbox Series X/S.